Кира Уитрова ([info]kira_speaks) wrote in [info]philosophy,
2005-09-17 04:04:00
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A Warning for Objectivists

(If you are not an Objectivist, ignore this, with my apologies for the distraction.)

I fear that we (Objectivists) read too much into everything about Ayn Rand, looking for how it ties into Objectivism. If this is a trend of behavior, we will start excommunicating people for having different taste in music, art, movies etc, saying, "How could you be an Objectivist and still like that crap?"

I cannot stress enough how important it is that we remember the line between what is essential, by the standard of philosophical principles, and what is aesthetic. To share a philosophy with someone does not mean that you must *be the same* in every way. If that were so, human nature would not be possible, and we would be talking about erasing individuality.

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  • 47 comments

[info]airstrip

September 17 2005, 10:25:45 UTC 6 years ago

So, the movement that insists on autonomy and the self-determination of the individual can excommunicate people? Excommunicate them from what? Certainly it cannot excommunicate them from themselves and if there is a body from which to be expelled, it must certainly be anathema to Objectivist principles anyhow.

[info]kira_speaks

September 17 2005, 10:39:10 UTC 6 years ago

I was not referring to a movement, but to individuals only.

If we define Objectivism by who Ayn Rand was, there will soon be no Objectivists left. I'm afraid that we've already started down that path, caring too much about agreeing with her than agreeing with her philosophy. I think there's always a subtle difference between those two, but it's a very important one.

[info]airstrip

September 17 2005, 11:07:24 UTC 6 years ago

Within Objectivism, isn't a movement properly a collection of individuals cooperating freely to advance some cause in which they are all interested?

[info]booksoverbombs

September 17 2005, 13:10:57 UTC 6 years ago

To be fair, Ayn Rand defined Objectivism by who Ayn Rand was. No exponent of any other philosophical system demanded of its adherents that they smoke cigarettes, much less sign fealty oaths or denounce the work of Bach as immoral.

[info]1144

September 17 2005, 14:48:58 UTC 6 years ago

No, sorry. You don't get to have some good ideas, and then say you can't share these good ideas unless I get along with you personally. She defined Objectivism by looking at reality, and there's no copyright on reality. Her attitude her problem, and she suffered for it, and we're still suffering for it.

[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]1144

6 years ago

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[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]dialogic

6 years ago

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[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]dialogic

6 years ago

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[info]1144

6 years ago

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[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]1144

6 years ago

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[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]1144

6 years ago

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[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]1144

6 years ago

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[info]airstrip

September 17 2005, 18:29:49 UTC 6 years ago

While they did not require that you smoke cigarettes or reject Bach, mainly because they didn't exist, please check Mo-tzu.

[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]airstrip

6 years ago

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[info]airstrip

6 years ago

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[info]kira_speaks

September 17 2005, 21:04:12 UTC 6 years ago

I'm just gonna let this one slide...cause it's just funny.

[info]booksoverbombs

6 years ago

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[info]1144

September 17 2005, 14:56:00 UTC 6 years ago

Subtle my ass! Those who don't get it are sycophants and are giving us a truly miserable name, and it's so f'ing ironic, as [info]airstrip points out. Hopefully, we're just waiting for Peikoff and Binswanger to die, and then maybe we all can be a little more rational overall. You know about the Objectivist Center, don't you? Doesn't sound like you do.

True enough point, though. Don't mean to be harsh.

[info]airstrip

September 17 2005, 18:32:34 UTC 6 years ago

Actually, the fact that they are sycophants is evidence, prima facie, that they don't get it.

[info]contrariandoer

September 17 2005, 15:23:30 UTC 6 years ago

Objectivists are in so-called identity crisis. It's very similar to
a development of a new organization or a culture. There is nothing
to be afraid. A real Objectivists don't live life based on fear.

[info]dog0fwar

September 18 2005, 00:55:40 UTC 6 years ago

DRINK BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER

[info]anosognosia

September 18 2005, 00:52:36 UTC 6 years ago

See: The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult by Murray N. Rothbard.

[info]airstrip

September 18 2005, 01:38:02 UTC 6 years ago

I know.

[info]rouchambeau

September 17 2005, 13:13:08 UTC 6 years ago

Isn't there an objectivists forum for this?

[info]1144

September 17 2005, 14:51:59 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah, I doubt there are any here that aren't there (objectivism, objectivists, ayn_rand_forum)

[info]unnamed525

September 17 2005, 13:57:50 UTC 6 years ago

Ween yourself off the Rand for a while.
Go study logic.

[info]1144

September 17 2005, 14:49:57 UTC 6 years ago

Start excommunicating? LOL 3 letters: TOC.

[info]airstrip

September 17 2005, 18:33:49 UTC 6 years ago

TOC?

Deleted comment

[info]airstrip

6 years ago

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[info]1144

6 years ago

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[info]thales1940

6 years ago

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[info]nanikore

September 17 2005, 18:00:14 UTC 6 years ago

I think you should shoot at a more meaningful target.

[info]airstrip

September 17 2005, 18:26:21 UTC 6 years ago

Question: do you consider the poster meaningful?

[info]nanikore

September 17 2005, 23:54:21 UTC 6 years ago

What do you mean "poster"

Something hung on the wall?

[info]airstrip

September 18 2005, 00:01:04 UTC 6 years ago

Adding an -er the same as one would to hunt, thus a poster in this context is "one who posts."

[info]nanikore

6 years ago

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[info]sacundim

September 17 2005, 21:56:35 UTC 6 years ago

If this is a trend of behavior, we will start excommunicating people for having different taste in music, art, movies etc, saying, "How could you be an Objectivist and still like that crap?"

Heh. Reminds me of Soviet Realism—The Official Artistic Style of the Soviet Union®.

[info]thales1940

September 23 2005, 03:24:27 UTC 6 years ago

I'm 65 now and discovered "For The New Intellectual" when I was 29. Rand planted the idea in me that my good old mid-western Christian perspective might be wrong. Gradually I've come to recognize that Rand was able to demonstrate the cardinal nature of reason. Regardless of how she lived her life or any of the restrictions she might have wanted to place on her legacy, she gave to me a sense that knowledge is objective and provable. I'm not in contact with any of the groups that are around and only read TIA, but I've been preaching for years that if Rand is right, then there is at least a little bit of either mystical subjectivism or Kantian subjectivism in every idea that isn't explicitly objective. That means the world is our oyster. I think she said in the Playboy interview that if you understand the meaning of reason and practice it consistently all the rest will follow; meaning the values of reason.
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